Kuwaiti coinage - description inaccuracy regarding rulers

I was hoping for a little clarification on the circulation issues of the post-independence Emirate of Kuwait.

Firstly, in my 2010 38th edition Krause, at the beginning of the Kuwaiti section they list the rulers for the latter part of the 20th century as follows:

Abdullah Ibn Salim, 1950-1965
Sabah Ibn Salim, 1965-1977
Jabir Ibn Ahmad, 1977-

This is further backed up by Wikipedia (there were other rulers in the 21st c.) However, when Krause goes on to list the early issues of the Emirate, they identify the 1961 strikes as Abdullah Ibn Salim (ok so far) but then they group from 1962 all the way up to the 90s under the Ruler Jabir Ibn Ahmad - how can this be?

Secondly, I was wondering if any readers of Arabic out there could help with translation of the inscriptions on the obverse of these issues, for example https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3035.html. I recently acquired one of these to add to my set (5, 10, 20, 50 & 100 Fils) and we are told by Krause that the inscription above the numeral reads "al-Kuwait" - is this correct?

Furthermore, one might assume that the inscription below the numeral is the denomination in words (i.e. Fils) but then this inscription is changed on the 20 and 50 Fils, like https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3038.html but reverts back to the original for the 100 Fils - can anyone shed any light?

Anyone got any ideas/hints/suggestions?

Hi,
To answer the second question, the inscription is الكويت, al-Kuwait, as you thought. The centre reads ١ فلس, 1 fils.
As for the 20, 50 and 100 fils coins, that'll be the way plurals work in Arabic. I'm not an expert on that aspect, but I wouldn't be surprised if the plural form فلسا, filsa, is used for numbers from 11-99, for example. On some other coins, for example this one (a quick glance shows you see it on Kuwaiti 5- and 10-fils coins), you also see the form فلوس, fulus. So I'm not sure what the difference is, but it's just something to be aware of!
(If you collect Russian or other Slavic coins, you might be aware that their languages involve a similar pluralisation system - genitive singular for 2-4, 22-24 etc., and genitive plural for 5-20, 25-29, etc., and singular for e.g. 51. Complicated to explain...)

As for the rulers, I raised a similar question - of coins overlapping multiple reigns - for a different country some time ago. I forget which country (possibly Egypt), but I don't think anyone had any satisfactory answer for it then.

Alastair

For an extensive and involved explanation of the Arabic plural system, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_grammar#Cardinal_numerals

It does appear to have similarities with the Russian as described above, which is a coincidence as that was a guess on my part.

Not for the faint-hearted!

Many thanks for that, alastor, that fairly comprehensively wraps up the inscription/translation queries. When I started this investigation I was hoping that a part of the inscription would be related to the ruler so that we could differentiate but it would seem that is not the case. In the absence of any information/evidence to the contrary we may just have to leave the catalogue the way it is, although it really rankles me that the coin description is inaccurate

Citation: alastorHi,
To answer the second question, the inscription is الكويت, al-Kuwait, as you thought. The centre reads ١ فلس, 1 fils.
As for the 20, 50 and 100 fils coins, that'll be the way plurals work in Arabic. I'm not an expert on that aspect, but I wouldn't be surprised if the plural form فلسا, filsa, is used for numbers from 11-99, for example. On some other coins, for example this one (a quick glance shows you see it on Kuwaiti 5- and 10-fils coins), you also see the form فلوس, fulus. So I'm not sure what the difference is, but it's just something to be aware of!
(If you collect Russian or other Slavic coins, you might be aware that their languages involve a similar pluralisation system - genitive singular for 2-4, 22-24 etc., and genitive plural for 5-20, 25-29, etc., and singular for e.g. 51. Complicated to explain...)

As for the rulers, I raised a similar question - of coins overlapping multiple reigns - for a different country some time ago. I forget which country (possibly Egypt), but I don't think anyone had any satisfactory answer for it then.

Alastair

You explained that so well...well done. I'm liking the work going on here!

Glad I could help! Seems to be the only area of knowledge that isn't yet covered better by lots of other users on here!

And radrick, I sympathise about the inaccuracies. I'm a frequent updater and corrector of coin pages, and it does annoy me if I know something's wrong but don't know what the right information is...

Thanks for the feedback, alastor. I have modified the topic title in the hope that the catalogue moderators might come to our aid (and the thread might now need to be moved to the "Catalogue" section - Ben?). It would seem that we are in agreement that the coins of the pages under discussion, namely KM#s 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 & 14, are inaccurate and should be modified. Certainly the title "Jabir Ibn Ahmad" is misleading since the coin type also covers strikes from the reign of the two other Emirs mentioned earlier. Perhaps it would be simpler and more accurate to leave the ruler off the description and just leave the denomination, "x Fils", and the mintage years to identify the coin in question. What does anyone else think and perhaps a member of the catalogue team could offer their opinion also? Many thanks, Rick

I guess with the catalogue...it is still in a fluid stage. I guess the catalogue team are tightening up with this kind of thing and, rather than remove the ruler we are aiming for uniformity on both sections of the catalogue...English and French. I am sure someone will take notice of what you have mentioned.

Thanks for your help, Ben. I know the catalogue team have quite a lot on their plate at the moment and this is probably a way down their priority list so we'll just have to wait and see

Citation: alastorAnd radrick, I sympathise about the inaccuracies. I'm a frequent updater and corrector of coin pages...

That is without a doubt true!

I love your requests, alastor. Whatever information you put up is better than leaving the field blank, although your information is really good.